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楼主: nut

[量产刀] 汤姆和杰瑞谈战术刀--27日更新

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  • TA的每日心情
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    2017-12-19 21:16
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    [LV.1]初来乍到

    发表于 2009-9-26 11:58 | 显示全部楼层
    翻出来学习先。
  • TA的每日心情
    开心
    2018-11-16 20:40
  • 签到天数: 7 天

    [LV.3]偶尔看看II

    发表于 2009-9-26 12:05 | 显示全部楼层
    Bob Angell设计的鞘太棒了!
    就是不能理解,再没有用K板之前,皮子是怎么做到的?
    如果用皮子的话,势必在护手部位要加一个绊扣,这样的,就失去了最初的设计目的!

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     楼主| 发表于 2009-9-27 00:48 | 显示全部楼层

    http://www.cstarlight.cn/

    这是一个读图的时代,也许上几张Tom做的刀的图,能让大家对他的概念有些更深的了解
    918-Takedown-02-Compressed.JPG
    918-Photo-02-Compressed.JPG
    918-Photo-04-Compressed.JPG
    918-Photo-05-Compressed.JPG
    918-Photo-06-Compressed.JPG
    918-Photo-07-Compressed.JPG

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    发表于 2009-9-27 12:36 | 显示全部楼层
    老人有老人的想法

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     楼主| 发表于 2009-9-27 12:38 | 显示全部楼层
    Jerry 说
    In retrospect I wish I'd divided this into two threads because the term "tactical" is too broad to cover both of what Tom and I are talking about. There is the pure fighting knife that Tom is speaking of, and there is the multifunctional, military capable knife that I'm more familiar with. Both "tactical", but very different.
    回想一下,我希望能把这个帖子分成2个,因为“战术”这个词实在太宽泛,不能包含Tom和我说聊的这些。Tom谈的是完全的格斗刀,我更熟悉多功能,军用刀。都“战术”,但是有不同。

    In terms of fighting knives Tom's right on, and shivs are probably a great example since they likely kill more people every year than all other knives of any price combined, and are built for concealment, probably with some very ingenious carry systems. Kitchen knives, in addition to being light are also tough by most anyone's standards, designed to be tossed into a sink and have a very thin and fine point survive the experience. Most of them use carbon or stainless steels with ~.40-.55% carbon which brings their hardness to somewhere around Rc45-55. There is a good reason for such hardness. It's more likely to deform than to crack. It can be sharpened or have the edge realigned (if deformed) quickly with a sharpening steel, and the only risk if you drop it on a tile floor is to your foot.
    就Tom上面说的格斗刀而言,凶器(shivs)可能是个很好的例子,每年它都比那些为了隐藏而制作,有着独创携带系统的刀杀了更多的人。厨刀,除了轻便,强度也可以满足大多数人的标准。大多数厨刀使用碳钢或者不锈钢,含碳量在0.4~0.55%,硬度在Rc45~55。这样的硬度是有原因的。这样的刀会卷刃,但是不会断掉。它可以很快地用打磨钢棍磨利,修理刃口(如果卷刃了)。唯一的危险就是刀掉在砖地上和你脚上。

    It's my understanding that apart from shivs, for which there is likely no data, kitchen knives are those most often used in fatal knife attacks.
    这是我对凶器的理解。在那些致命刀具攻击事件中最常用的还是厨刀。

    Since we're lifting our skirts a little bit here, I'll add another true confession to the list. How important is edge retention in a fighting knife? Knife fights rarely last more than 5 minutes so I'd guess the answer is you need an edge that lasts... 5 minutes. How long does the edge last on a shiv made from a spoon? Answer: long enough. If you have to sacrifice toughness for edge retention it's a poor trade. That said, the use of high quality steel with a properly formed edge can be vital, but only if you have sufficient toughness to go with it. Fighters can encounter obstacles other than an opponent, including belts, buttons and even an opponent's edge, so if your edge is removed or deformed by such obstacles you then have a dull fighter and that's decidedly not good, but neither is holding a stump of what was once a fancy "tactical zombie eater" . So there are trade-offs in all this that are in the end decided by the balance of attributes you need in a fighting knife, but deciding that balance is something you should contemplate very carefully.
    既然在这里要自己揭密,我就再招供一些。一把格斗刀的刀锋的保持性有多重要?格斗的刀很少超过5分钟的持续使用,所以我认识答案就是你需要刀锋的保持性能有5分钟就够了。用汤匙做的刀的刀锋能保持多长时间?答案:足够长。如果你必须牺牲强度来换取刀锋保持性,这个交易不值得。也就是说,一只使用高质量钢材,有着合适刀锋的刀,只有具有足够的强度,才是至关重要的。格斗刀遇到各种障碍比遇到一个敌人的机会要多,包括腰带,纽扣,甚至是敌人的刀,所以如果你的刀被这些障碍物弄得崩刃,卷刃,你的刀就钝了,你就认为这刀不好,但是总比你拿着一把断了的,曾经是华丽的“战术僵尸终结者”要强。所以最后你要面临一把你需要的格斗刀的属性的平衡取舍问题,你需要深思熟虑来权衡这个问题。

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     楼主| 发表于 2009-9-27 12:42 | 显示全部楼层
    Jerry说
    I want to add something here that's really something I should have posted on the masthead of these forums when we first began.
    我想多说一点,我们开始的时候,我应该把它放在置顶的帖子里

    Ignore the bullshit.
    忽略掉那些废话。

    Knives are mostly about common sense. As I have said repeatedly on topics of knife design and construction, focus only on the tasks required of the knife, determine what functions and attributes are demanded of the knife and its component to perform those tasks, and ignore everything else, including legends, myths and most of what you read about knives on forums and in magazines. Words like "best", "greatest", "awesome", etc., etc are meaningless terms that really shouldn't be used in these discussions, certainly not about performance. Common sense is what matters most.
    刀更多的是关于理智的。像我重复的关于刀具设计和结构的观点,着重刀具完成的任务,任务又决定需要那种功能和特性的刀子,它的哪些组成部分完成这些任务,哪些可以被忽略,包括传奇,神话和更多你们在论坛和杂志上读到的那些。如“最好的”“最棒的”“令人惊叹的”等等词汇,这些东西在我们的讨论里一点意义没有,当然不包括性能。理智是最重要的东西。

    Unfortunately, and largely as a result of internet forums, we've allowed myths and untruths to evolve into what are now accepted as facts. We allow appearance and cosmetics to influence our judgement of quality. We are willing to assume that because a knife costs $1000 it must be a great knife. Is it?
    不幸的是,由于internet上论坛的原因,我们允许神话和谎言成为我们接受的事实。我们允许表象和伪装干扰我们对于质量的判断。我们愿意去假设一把刀卖1000美金,它一定是把好刀。是吗?

    What does fit and finish have to do with function? It might be suggestive of overall construction integrity, but how do you know what evil might lie under that handle or at the joint you really can't see? You've heard both Tom and I say that we would rather have a $20 kitchen knife in our hand than a $500 tactical boat anchor if we ever really needed to use a knife to defend ourselves. I have often told people that if I really needed a knife for survival, it would be a $20 Ontario Machete. If I had my choice of a second knife to have along with me in that circumstance, it would likely be a $40 Swiss Army knife. If I could have a third knife with me, it would probably be one of my little Harpoons, the cheapest knife I make.
    怎么做来满足功能要求?整体结构的完整性是我们的建议,但是你怎么知道在刀柄和你看不到的连接部位暗藏祸因呢?如你听到的,Tom和,如果我们需要一把刀去保护自己的时候我们宁可手里拿一把20美金的厨刀,也不愿意拿一把500美金的战术船锚。我经常告诉人们,我我需要一把生存刀,那将是一把20美金的安大略砍刀(Ontario Machete)。 如果在那个环境里我可以有第二个选择,会是一把40美金的瑞士军刀。如果有第三个选择,会是我做的最便宜的一把刀,我的小Harpoon(鱼叉)。

    Common sense理智. Don't leave home without it.
    理智,Don't leave home without it.

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     楼主| 发表于 2009-9-27 12:43 | 显示全部楼层
    Eli说

    With all this honesty, you guys are beginning to make me (as a collector) feel guilty about lusting after your high end knives  
    老实说,你们让我觉得有罪恶感,我又想买你们的高端刀了
    Just kidding. I still check the for sale section everytime I log in.  
    开个玩笑,我每次登录的都是都先去交易区。

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    发表于 2009-9-27 12:44 | 显示全部楼层

    http://www.jianshen360.cn/

    谢谢楼主,,,好些天没来一来就看到了这么个好文.

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     楼主| 发表于 2009-9-27 12:44 | 显示全部楼层
    Jerry 说

    Eli, it's not "our" high end knives you need to worry about...  
    Eli,你不必担心,那不是“我们的”高端刀

    You've touched on an important issue though. Collectibility and function are not necessarily connected. There are a great many beautiful knives made that are worth every dime you might spend on them because of their elegance and crafting. My table at the Blade Show is next to a maker who has knives on his table that are over $5000 each. I have no doubt they are worth every penny. I have no idea if I'd want to take one to a knife fight. I might, but I'd probably want to handle it, ask some questions about the materials used, and even then I'd likely want to screw up his beautiful edge profile by convexing it a little.
    你提到了一个重要的话题。收藏性和功能性不必要相通。有很多漂亮的刀子,因为优雅和工艺,值得你花每一分钱。我在刀展上的桌子紧挨一个刀匠,他的每把刀都超过5000美金。我毫不怀疑他们值那个钱。我想我不会拿这样一把刀去格斗。我可能会拿着它,问些材料使用的问题,甚至我更想了解他漂亮的凸式打磨的刀锋。

    Different issues, but there's no reason a knife can't have both function and fine craftsmanship. Tom's are an excellent example of that.
    不同的话题,但是一把刀兼具功能和工艺是有原因的。Tom就是个很好的例子。
  • TA的每日心情
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    2020-3-18 21:51
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    [LV.1]初来乍到

    发表于 2009-10-6 14:40 | 显示全部楼层
    还有下文吗?
    很好的帖子
    仔细想想
    很薄的西式厨刀
    在很多时候胜过战术船锚
  • TA的每日心情
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    2016-12-17 23:35
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    [LV.1]初来乍到

    发表于 2009-10-11 13:40 | 显示全部楼层

    http://www.hcmkj.cn/

    西式厨刀对付无防护目标足够了。

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    发表于 2009-10-11 13:42 | 显示全部楼层

    http://www.heibor.com.cn/

    名字很像买和老鼠啊。。。

    我认为咱们为“格斗”和“战术”付出的代价已经很高了

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    发表于 2010-5-9 00:23 | 显示全部楼层
    用刀用久了的人都会有自己对刀具的定义和想

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    发表于 2010-5-13 06:52 | 显示全部楼层
    楼主辛苦,死脑细胞不少

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    发表于 2010-5-13 09:49 | 显示全部楼层
    战术就是掏钱。
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